‘The Edge of Reality’: Paul Magee in Conversation with Paul Collis, Jen Crawford and Wayne Knight

By , , and | 1 September 2023
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Location

Information shelter outside Gundabooka National Park. Along the road back to Bourke. Standing around.

Time

Afternoon, Sunday 11th September 2022

Speakers

Paul Collis, Jen Crawford, Wayne Knight and Paul Magee

Paul Magee: We’re on the edge of Gundabooka National Park.

Paul Collis: Elvis Presley sang a song called ‘Edge of Reality.’

I want to ask you about reality, Jen.

I’m Barkindji. I’m living off Country now, in somebody else’s country: Ngunnawal Country. I’m happy to be there, but I’m sad to be away from home. I feel fully connected while I’m here, fully connected all through my body. I feel like I’m constantly present. Whereas when I’m anywhere else, I’m not a complete person.

How do you feel about returning?

Jen Crawford: Just lovely. It’s a very warm and peaceful feeling for me, even though it’s not my home. Actually, even the first time I came here – I think this is the fourth time – there was a lovely sense of welcome, which I think is mediated by you and your family.

PC: There was a lot of energy in that bus when we were coming through here last time.

JC: There’s a real generosity. But although that’s something you create, that Wayne creates, and that everybody we meet creates, it also feels like there’s something here.

When I stepped behind the sign just now, just watching the grasses, the wind is so gentle.

PC: Reading the wind like that’s an important part of growing up, knowing everything’s right. You don’t feel any descending atmospheric pressure now. It’s a good season to be out here.

This is a strong woman’s site, here at Gundabooka.

I noticed last time we were here more than the time before, and this time even more, Jen, that you’ve got those eyes, those Barkindji eyes going to places.

What draws you to things? Is it your eye? Or are you drawn to something that you don’t know?

There’s a lot of women’s energy here.

JC: I do still have a sense of introduction –

PC: A sense of discovery, do you think?

JC: – a sense that I need to look around and come to know, to take things in – as someone who’s a guest to the Country.

PC: Remember I said, ‘If an Aboriginal person gives you a story, you are responsible for it?’

Bill Neidje says it too: ‘You come to this place, you’re responsible for it.’

That’s where some of the big clashes have happened – because people were not occupying the space provided by Aboriginal people, in the way that Aboriginal people expected them to. Issues to do with reciprocity, that kind of business.

Language would have been a great barrier between us. But those who can speak different languages would have picked up Aboriginal languages fairly easily, I think.

I’m now going to talk with Wayne Knight.

Wayne was a Parks and Wildlife officer. He’s a proxy officer to Toorale National Park.

WK: And Gundabooka.

PC: And to Gundabooka National Park, on the management team. Wayne is a Barkindji/Kunya person. Wayne, how do you feel when you return there? Is this the first time you’ve been back in four years?

WK: Yeah.

PC: How do you feel seeing the country in full flower?

WK: Looks good.

PC: Healthy and strong?

WK: Peaceful.

PC: It does feel that way, doesn’t it?

There’s absolutely no drama here.

When the country was stressed out with drought, how were you coping with that?

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Paul Magee studied in Melbourne, Moscow, San Salvador and Sydney. He is author of From Here to Tierra del Fuego (University of Illinois Press: 2000), Cube Root of Book (John Leonard Press: 2006), Stone Postcard (John Leonard Press: 2014) and Suddenness and the Composition of Poetic Thought (Rowman and Littlefield: 2022). Paul is Professor of Poetry at the University of Canberra, where he directs the Centre for Cultural and Creative Research (CCCR).

More by Paul Magee on Cordite Poetry Review →
Jen Crawford is author of Admissions (Five Islands Press, 2000), bad appendix (Auckland: Titus Books, 2009), Napoleon Swings (Auckland: Soapbox Press, 2009), Pop Riveter (Auckland: Pania Press, 2011), Koel (Cordite Books, 2016) and Lichen Loves Stone (Tinfish Press, 2016). With Rina Kikuchi, Jen co-edited and part-translated Poet to Poet: Contemporary Women Poets from Japan (2017), an anthology of 10 contemporary female Japanese poets. Jen is an Associate Professor in Creative Writing at the University of Canberra.

More by Jen Crawford on Cordite Poetry Review →
Wayne Knight is a Barkindji/Kunya person. Wayne was born and raised in Bourke. Wayne’s early life was informed by his Grandmother, Neta, a Kunya Elder who lived in Bourke, and who taught Wayne 'cross-language talk' (a multilingual speak that was used between Kunya, Barkindji, Murrawarri, Wongamara language groups in communication, before the coming of Westerners to the Plains Country of his birth). Wayne was taught how to track and identify specific plants and animals by his Grandfather Hope (a Barkindji person). Wayne's knowledge of Barkindji lands was enhanced with and under the tuition of senior Barkindji Uncles and Elders, who assisted his teaching of the waterways between Brewarrina and Menendi Lakes areas, and on the plains country, between Brewarrina (Nyemba Country) and Bourke, Cobar and Wilcannia. Wayne held a senior Indigenous Parks and Wildlife Officer's position with NSW Dept. Parks and Wildlife until a serious back injury caused him to retreat from that work. Wayne's knowledge of Barkindji Culture and Country is unmatched in the Bourke area.

More by Wayne Knight on Cordite Poetry Review →
Paul Collis is a Barkindji man. He was born in Bourke, in far north/west New South Wales. His early life was informed by Barkindji, Kunya, Murawarri, Wongamara and Nyempa story tellers and artists, who taught him Aboriginal Culture and Law. He is author of Dancing Home (University of Queensland Press, 2017) and Nightmares Run Like Mercury (Recent Works Press, 2021). Paul works as Director, Indigenous Engagement, at the University of Canberra.

More by Paul Collis on Cordite Poetry Review →

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