LFtL: I get the feel in at that time is just like somewhat of a golden age for hip hop in Sydney, the community, the participation, just what the space meant to people. Whenever people of your era talk about it, it just sounds like that’s the golden period of hip hop in Sydney.

SAJ: It was very segmented though. There was a white scene and there was a multicultural scene, and that’s not exaggerating. We weren’t really aware of what the white ‘Anglo kids’ were doing in the other areas, and they weren’t aware of what we were doing. The multicultural take on hip hop and R&B has always been infused more with R&B, with soul music, with more of a commercial slant to it because we didn’t have money, the majority of us, and we wanted the money. ‘Give us the shiny suits like Puffy.’ We wanted that. Whereas when the ‘Aus hip hop’ – as the Anglo side called itself – they were more: ‘let’s keep it real for elements, keep it real to the culture.’ And we would be like, ‘we are real, we’re shooting each other over here and we’re pull, this is real enough for us, we want to aim for more.’ So, there was a very interesting schism between the two groups in those days.

So much of what hip hop is about is the aspirational. It’s the expression of those who may never had access to that affluence and so they write about their journeys in trying to their visions of success. That story telling is captivating. It can be very poetic. What’s your take on the never-ending argument on whether hip hop is poetry?

LFtL: To me, there’s no debating it. Hip hop is poetry. Just because it takes a different form to what people may be used to that doesn’t make it any lesser. To be a poet, you have to take in your surroundings, combine them with your experiences, your thoughts and feelings, and express them in a way that best captures that moment in time. Hip hop does that. The way rap lyricists do it is masterful. It’s definitely a mastery of language, a mastery of our language. When I say that, I mean, we’re masters at taking the way we speak and communicate in our respective contexts and using that to tell our stories. There are so many intricacies in each verse, word play aka similes, metaphors, punch lines, the use of narrative and voice, cadence, rhythm, structure, melody, the list of techniques is never-ending. Rappers are masters at telling stories in a way that is immediately engaging and energetic. There can be no argument. Hip hop will always be poetry in my eyes.

SAJ: Are there forms of rap you don’t consider poetic?

LFtL: If you had asked me this question a few years ago, I would have probably said ‘yeah’, you know, the pop-rap kind of shit isn’t as real as the real shit we know and love but now having had multiple experiences in writing sessions for pop music artists, my opinion has changed. From what I’ve seen, there’s a lot of emotion, thought, time and energy that goes into songs that from a distance we may consider ‘fast-food music’, but that’s someone’s story right there. That’s someone’s lived experience, and they’ve taken that, spoken about it deeply in a session with co-writers and producers, and they’ve gone in, taken that, and articulated in such a way that many people can relate to it instantly. That’s a special craft. So, to go back to your question, my answer is no, not really. It’s all subjective. At the end of the day, music is expression. It’s the capturing of a moment in time and expressing it musically, in such a way that audiences can connect and relate to it. It’s all a kind of poetry.

This interview (of which an earlier version was published by Rolling Stone Australia) was conducted as part of Diversity Arts Australia’s PACESETTERS project, which sees culturally diverse arts practitioners in Australia interviewed by their peers, with funding provided from Create NSW.